Version 2 – 1 hour 51 minute clip

00:00:  From France to California.  (Interviewer)  We have relatives there such as small Muas Xwm in Santa Ana and Commander Muas Foom…. He has since passed away.  He is the one that my father took a picture with. (Interviewer)  No, not that one.  That one is my older brother.  He is the one in the colored picture, the one where you said my father was tall.  (Interviewer)  My grandfather is called Grandpa Txawj Tuam.  Grandpa Nyiaj Lwm is the oldest then next is Grandpa Npliaj Yaj.  He is the last son of Grandpa Txawj Tuam.  (Interviewer)  I do not know what year that was.  (Interviewer)  My father then Grandpa Tooj Vas, then Grandpa Nyiaj Lwm, then Grandpa Txawj Tuam.  That is five generations.

00:02:  Around the 1800’s.  (Interviewer)  I remember my Grandpa Npliaj still had the sword he used to fight in the war with the Chinese.  I saw that sword.  I do not know where that sword is anymore.  (Interviewer)

00:04:  (Interviewer)  My name is Muas Nplooj but I was later given an elder name and am now called Nyiaj Xeeb Muas.  Most people know me by Muas Nplooj.  My father is Nais Koo Ntxoov Nruas Muas from Bualong.  He was one of the ones that created Bualong from the beginning.  When we went to France, my name was changed to Bertrand Muas.  When we arrived here, I did not change my name and when I got my American citizenship, my name remained Bertrand Muas. (Interviewer)

00:06:  I was born in the city of Namphan on the side of Phousan.  Phousan is a huge jungle in the mountains.  Back then, my father had to take care of the French when the Japanese went after the French and the French ran to the mountain of Phousan.  (Interviewer)  At that time, the French was coming to take over Laos and at that time, Phas Nyas Tub Npis Lis Foom was still the leader.  At that time, the Japanese and the German were together so the Japanese stepped foot in Laos and since the French was in Laos, they would kill the French too.  At that time, the Hmong and the French were helping each other.  The Hmong were in alliance with the French.  The Japanese followed the French and the French had no where to go so Phas Nyas discussed that since Phousan was such a huge jungle, the French can hide there to escape the Japanese.  Our family was the one that saved the French in the mountain of Phousan.  (Interviewer)  I was born in 1958 in the city of Namphan.

00:08:  (Interviewer)  I was about 5 or 6 years old.  I started school early because when I started school, my older sister still had to carry me on her back.  I liked going to school so I started very young.  We went to school in Bualong.  At that time, there were two teachers.  One was called Teacher Xyooj Xeeb and Teacher Xyooj Tswb.  I remember they were both soldiers so we had soldiers teaching us.  (Interviewer)  Yes, there were both boys and girl students.  When I was young, I was a really good student and studied well.  During those days, whoever did well in school were told to hit other students.  I remember having to hit my aunt’s daughter and later on they complained and asked why I hit them on the head.  I told them that I only hit them because the teacher had told me to. (Interviewer)

00:10:  I went to primary school there.  In 1966, the war broke out so we could no longer stay in Bualong because the Vietnamese were coming.  Then we moved to Pukong and I studied a bit there.  I remember that I just started to learn to sing the Lao national anthem and shortly after, we moved back to Bualong.  Once back in Bualong, we created two schools there like how I mentioned earlier.  I also studied in Bualong and was in grade thib xij then my father got relocated to Xomthong so we moved to Xomthong and I continued my studies there.  My father moved to Xomthong because he was a French soldier.  My father and General Vang Pao were both soldiers.  When we were going to Xomthong, my father went to meet Caub Khoom Xeem Khas then he told my father (my father is Ntxoov Nruas) that since my father used to be a military leader for him back when there were in Xieng and that right now he is currently looking for someone who has helped him in the past.  My father was a French solder and he also parachuted down in Kavxeevzav.  He was a French soldier.

00:12:  Caub Khoom Xeem Khas told my father to do the paperwork… then we came to Xomthong.  Once we got in Xomthong, I continued school in pos xij.  We were in the second quarter.  Over there we call it trimes in French.  After pos xij, it is pos hab, pos hauv … that’s what I studied.  In 1969 and 1970, the war broke out in Xomthong.  At that time, I was in grade pos hauv.  (interviewer)  Thaj Yeeb, Leej Xyooj were my friends.  At that time, it was fun and stressful too because the war broke out in Xomthong and we ended up in Moos Peeb.  For those of us that were in grade pos haum, teacher Mos Liab and General Vang Pao said that for all the boys that are in grade pos hauv to go to Vientiane.  Then we went to Vientiane and after only several months of studying, we had exams.  We went to the Naydale school in Vientiane.  That was a newly built school by the Americans.  They built school for the children to study from grade pos hauv in Xieng to Vientiane so we went to stay in those homes.

00:14:  (Interviewer)  At that time, I was young and still in school.  All my father said was, the Vietnamese are coming and we need to run.  At that time, I loved taking pictures and carrying books so all I carried were books and photos on our move to Moos Pheeb.  When we arrived in Moos Pheeb, they told us to go study in Vientiane.  Shortly after we went there, it was already time to take exams.  I tested into college Som Thong.  In Som Thong, we had sizum bay sizum a called b and a.  There were six of us.  We were the ones that did great on the tests then they put in in sizum a.  After we finished our studies there, it was moved to Moos Cab.  Then we went and continued our studies in Leesay.  (Interviewer)

00:16:  The Hmong and the Lao got along.  When I went to Vientiane, I did not see any problems but when the older brothers first went to Vientiane, there were a lot of bullying from the Lao.  The Lao called us Miao, they called us hill tribe people.  That caused the brother’s blood pressure to rise and they beat up some of the Laotian pretty bad.  (Interviewer)   In 1977… in 1975 the war broke out in Laos because after I finished my studies in Leesay, I went to study in Trozem.  After that, we competed to continue our studies in Leesay.  In French, we call that school Koos Kuaj dunthree.  In all of Laos, that is considered the most elite school because it was an academy in Monpoly.  There were professors and teachers from France that came to teach us there.  There were also Laotian teachers.  Most of the time, we spoke French at the school.  That is considered the top school in Laos. 

00:18:  It is a competitive school and we had to test to get into the school.  We had to pass the test and receive a certificate to be able to go to that school.  All the students have to test and compete to get accepted into that school.  We were lucky that we came from the school in Som Thong and studied well there already so when we came there, we studied well with the Vietnamese students, Chinese students and French students.  It was challenging but I was lucky and I passed the test.  I was sixteen at that time.  This was around 1974 or 1975.

00:20:  There were some Hmong that already went to that school such as Neal Thao and Lis Yeeb.  That group started in Leesay but we caught up to them and studied in Trozem together.  (Interviewer)  It is because I have my older brother Nuv Vaj Muas.  He was the one that went to stay with Txiv Plig and went to school so he was my role model.  He was a very good student.  He received prizes and stacks and stacks of awards.  He motivated me and I thought if he was that good, I had to study and be as good as him.  He was my role model.  Ever since I knew how to write in Lao… My dad used to be a Nai Koos Laib soldier.  My father had a camp named after him called Camp Ntxoov Nruas.  There were camps called Camp Vam Tuam Lis, Camp Caiv Yaj, Camp Nyiaj Xwm Thoj, Camp Ntxoov Nruas and Camp Nruas Lauj.  These camps were named as such.

00:22:  Later on, my father gained weight and became overweight and he could not walk much anymore so he could no longer be a soldier.  He became an official that took care of civil matters.  The duties were divided so my grandfather Txawj Pov looked after the solders.  At that time, if there were any issues amongst the civilians, they came to my father to help resolve the issues.  If there were any visitors or leaders that came to Bualong, my father took care of them.  If there were any teachers or doctors that came to Bualong, it was my father that took care of them.  This is why, even when I was young, I have helped my father throughout my childhood.  Each month, we had to run three reports.  One report goes to UCEF, the second report goes to General Vang Pao and the third report goes to Caub Xam Qhas.  This is done every month.  Not only that but be we kept a record of which families moved to Bualong.  We kept a record of who died, who was born and kept a record of the population

00:24:  so that we would have enough food delivered to us from UCEF.  I have always helped my father, sort of like his personal secretary.  (Interviewer)  I felt sorry for them because for example, like our family, there were many that passed away in the war.  Not only that but in Bualong, there were many Hmong with different last names there.  It was not just people with my last name Moua.  Everyone is related somehow and that is why we all came to live there.  For example, Nyiaj Xwm Thoj is one of my uncles.   And there are many others.  We are all related somehow and that is why we all came together to live in Bualong.  (Interviewer)  I remember the time where I had to report the biggest number of people was when the Laotians from Muakom came to stay in Bualong.  At that time, I had no rest because there were a lot of reports I had to do.  These reports had to be completed and sent to UCEF as soon as possible to be able to get the right amount of funds.

00:26:  There were a lot of Laotians that came to stay in Bualong.  There was a Laotian city close by the airport called Popaxay full of Laotians that came from Muakom.  At that time, Mayor Npoos Cas, the mayor of Muakom, came to Bualong.  My father and Mayor Npoos Cas became good friends.  The Hmong and the Laotians in Bualong never had any conflicts.  I remember when we lived there, the uncles such as Grandfather Nom Tsas and Grandfather Txawj Pov had a good relationship with the other mayor.  We have gotten along fine for a long time to the point where my mother has never gone to school but was able to speak Lao because of all the Laotian ladies that came around so she was able to learn and speak Lao from them.  Every year in Bualong, Grandfather Txawj Pov puts together an event for the Buddhas to come and bless the people.  They make a shrine and decorate it with money  and other items so that families with soldiers that has passed away come together and get the Buddhas’ blessings.  They give money, incense and blankets so the Buddhas can send those items to the deceased.

00:28:  There was always goodies during that ceremony so as a kid, every year I would go wait around because once they are done, we get to eat all the candies there and that made us very happy.  The Laotians that came to stay with us in Bualong were good people.  There is still someone to this day called Npaj Cuab, he is a Laotian boy that has beautiful calligraphy so my father asked him to come stay with us.  He and I became friends.  He still lives in Laos right now.  I still remember him.  He is still alive and I plan to visit him some day.  (Interviewer)  We lived in Somthong for two years.  This was around 1969 to 1970.  (Interviewer)  I have flown in the plane several times in Bualong because my father was a soldier and kept going to Long Cheng so I tagged along a couple times.  (Interviewer)  When I arrived in Long Cheng, I remember that…

00:30:  We arrived on a helicopter.  Once we landed at the airport, I could see a sea of soldiers.  I wondered why that city had so many soldiers.  There were also all kinds of planes there as well.  At that time, the planes flew in and took off every five minutes.  The reason why I say that is because my grandfather Nom Tsas lived on one side of the street and for us to get to their place, we had to wait in line each time until we are given the clear and allowed to pass and cross to the other side.  There were so many planes.  It was no joke.  (Interview)  In 1974-1975, I went to live in Vientiane and stayed with Txiv Plig.  At that time, my father came to work for Hongkakang.  We moved from Somthong to Muapang so there were some civilians that came from Bualong.  When the war broke out in Somthong, everyone moved to Muapang, into Nomlong.

00:32:  Then onto the town called Navay and Phousa.  That was when Mayor Muas Ntxawg became the mayor and my father became the vice-mayor for Muas Ntxawg because even though Muas Ntxawg was the mayor, he did not know the civilians from Bualong but my father has worked with civilians from many cities so that is why they appointed my father to be the vice mayor.  (interviewer)  I don’t know but I have always liked photography ever since I was young.  My older brother was in school and he really likes to take photos and took some of us when we were little so I do have some pictures with my younger and older brothers.  I have liked it since then because I realize how important those pictures are.  I thought that if I kept those pictures, it would be valuable in the future.  I already had those thoughts back then.  Every time my father gave me money, I would use to it develop pictures or use it to buy films.  At that time, they were very expensive and we did not have money to buy all those films. 

00:34: The good thing is that my sister, Niam Vaj Xyooj, had a camera that I could use.  Vaj Xyooj went to study in America so he left his camera and I was able to use it.  He received that camera from the Americans.  He worked with James Parker and left for America leaving his wife and children behind.  That is how I got to use his camera.  When he went to America, I was in Vientiane.  Any time he sent money to his wife and child, he sent it to me and then I gave it to them.  When the war was going to break out, there was Colonel Vuang who worked for the US Embassy, he kept in touch with my brother in law Vaj and he sent money to him.  When we were going to migrate to Thailand, I told him that Vaj Xyooj’s wife and I are going to Thailand.  (interviewer)  Like I said, I started photography because I had a brother in law called Lis Ntxhuav Xab who was a reporter in Bualong.  Those reporters always had camera gear to be able to do their job.  I saw that since I was little and thought that reporters must have pictures.

00:36:  That made me realize that we must know how to use a camera and the importance of having a camera.  When we report, we must have pictures to show and prove our stories.  (interviewer)  Those cameras were automatic.  Once you put in the film, you just click away.  Those reporter cameras are no manually operated.  For the smaller cameras, you just click away.  The camera I borrowed from my sister was an automatic camera.  (interviewer)  At that time, we have not gone to Long Cheng yet.  We were still staying with Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov.  We were done with school and it was break time when the war broke out.  Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov had a dream that the timing… there were teachers that stayed there where they taught Catholic.  There was a dormitory where the boys stayed and Txiv Plig helped them.  That dormitory housed the homeless or poor Hmong boys from the villages.  I was one of those boys and we stayed with Txiv Plig.  Txiv Plig already told us that he saw it coming and that there would be hardships coming. 

00:38:  He conveyed the message to us in poetry-like, saying that just like a bird with wings and feet, one will fly and soar around the world.  At that time, we knew there would be hardships coming.  Not only that but staying with Txiv Plig, every week, Txiv Plig Txhiaj Foom, the one who oversees all the students, he told us the news around the world and about the wars and what is taking place.  I remember clearly when they had the 7 day war in Israel, we received that news too.  I have a friend named Lis Yeeb, that currently lives in Madison, we listened to the daily news all the time.  We could gage what the political situation would be like.  We studied history and geography in school.  I completed all the homework so was able to analyze and understand how it would be like in Laos.  So when Txiv Plig made that announcement, we were already prepared.  However, we did not know what the end result would be for the Hmong after the war, we just knew the war was coming but did not know what the ruins would be.  I came back from Vientiane, because at that time, my father was at Noway.  (Interviewer) 

00:40:  That was around May of 1975 … probably around the 5th or the 6th of May.  Then we arrived home for one or two days and then I told my father the news.  I told him the hard news that Txiv Plig told us.  When I arrived, there was an uncle called Txiv Caiv Vuab Muas from Pakay, he had some uncles in Long Cheng such as Uncle Txawj Toog and Dr Lis Nplooj so he probably already received the news from his uncles, he had come to our town Noway to tell my father the news as well.  He told my father that all the leaders were preparing to move out of Long Cheng.  During that time, my father got sick too so as soon as my uncle told my father the news, he left.  My father said since it is too hard, he said that he and I have to go to Nasu the following day.  My father was sick so I had to help him get from Noway all the way to Nasu.  My father was sick and overweight too so there were times when he could not go anymore, I had to push him along. 

00:42:  We went slowly but when we reached the road, the road from Nasu to Long Cheng, there was no cars.  There was no traffic at all.  We kept going along and it was getting late when we saw a car come by.  We knew the driver so he took us to Nasu.  Once we arrived, I have an older brother Nuv Vaj.  At that time, he was leader in Nasu. We said that since he owned a phone, one of those huge phones they used during the war to communicate.  He even had one of those but he was not aware of the news.  During that time, no one was really told of the news and it was not communicated so he did not know what was going on.  So when we got there, my father said how did my brother not know the world is about to crumble down and why he was still staying put there.  My father told him to leave and to take us to Long Cheng.  At that time my father was still very sick and weak but unfortunately, it was a crucial time so my brother took us in his car to Long Cheng.  My father met with the relatives and the leaders there but he did not get any important words or anything from them at all because things were changing every hour. 

00:44:  At that time, we did not know where to go, what to do or cannot tell anyone anything.  All the leaders and everyone were scared that if they say anything, there would be something that comes out of it.  All they knew was they had to go to Long Cheng and wait for a plane to see if they can get to Thailand.  That’s all they knew.  My father went to Long Cheng so he told me to go back to Noway to get my mother and the rest of the family.  We told everyone to meet up at Nomyo the following day.  Nomyo is the road from Long Cheng to Nasu.  Then we went and waited for my father at Nomyo.  My brother had a bigger car so they came to pick up my mother, my sister, my brother in law and me to Long Cheng so we could wait for the plane and see if we could fight for a seat on the plane.  We arrived in Long Cheng on the 14th.  There were so many people waiting for the C100 airplane to take them.

00:46:  At that time, I had the camera that I borrowed from my sister.  I knew that in this time of hardship, I had to take care of the pictures.  When I went from Nasu to Noway, I met some Hmong along the way and I took a picture of them.  We still have that picture.  That Hmong man gave the picture to Gale Morrison.  (Interviewer)  We were not able to get on the plane.  (Interviewer)  I remember it was early in the morning, one of our grandfathers (Grandfather Nom Tsas) did not want to leave at all but my father was debating with him and told him he had to go too.  That he cannot stay there.  I still have the pictures I took of that moment.  Grandfather Nom Tsas refused to leave.  He said he did not want to because he was old and poor.  After their conversation, Grandfather Nom Tsas refused to leave and went back home.  Then there were more and more people that came to the airport.  There were thousands and thousands of people there.  I was able to take a few pictures of people that I knew at that time too.

00:48:  Once we arrived there and saw the number of people there, we knew we could not secure a place on the plane because the leaders took cars full of all their families there.  They arrived in huge 10-wheel cars.  One thing too is at that time, we were scared.  There were some that was able to get on the plane but some were left behind. There were some military leaders that commanded the soldiers and had their guns cocked.  I was right there and saw it with my own eyes and heard the guns getting cocked.  They had their guns cocked in front of the Dakota plane.  The American pilot stood there and with their guns, demanded that they allow their families to get on the plane otherwise they would shoot.  At that moment, I did not have the courage to take any pictures.  I thought to myself that it was not right of them to cock their guns like that especially because they were just there to pick up our people.  I was afraid that if I took any pictures, the soldiers would not be happy with me.  I regret not taking any pictures then.  If I took pictures, I would have gotten photos of that moment as well.  The second thing is, when the General flew out, there were two choppers that flew first and then it was the General’s plane that followed.

00:50:  We knew that was the plane that the General flew and left on.  At that time, I did not take any pictures either because I was afraid I would run out of films.  Those are the two times when I was in Long Cheng that I forgot to take pictures but I was able to capture the rest of the important moments.  (Interviewer)  At that time, there were a lot of civilians there that were not able to secure a seat on the plane so my father was really disappointed but it was ok because he was a soldier and knew the difficulty of things like that so my father told us not to worry.  We stayed and waited there a long time until they announced it on the speaker for us to leave right away and that there were soldiers coming from Neona and they were not happy.  If they shoot their cannons then we will all die.  We got scared and we left.  We thought there would be more plane that would come in but since the General flew out, there was not a single plane that flew in.  (Interviewer)  At that time, as a Hmong boy, I was in school and was a mature boy but I could not stop my watery eyes from the tears.  I cried all the time that how poor we were with no place to go and no country of our own.

00:52:  There were no more leaders and we did not know what to do with our lives.  We did not know what were going to happen to the lives of the Hmong people.  That was the saddest time.  When I first heard from Txiv Plig of the news, I thought that once I got back home, I would just have to carry my knife and gun and take my weapons and go straight to war and see how long I live.  There was no way out.  (Interviewer)  At that time, my entire family was at the airport just waiting.  We did not know and thought there would be more plane to come and take us.  We stayed there for a long time until they made the announcement and that is when everyone left.  I have a brother in law called Lis Ntxhuav Xab, he had a brother called Nais Koo Nom Tub Lauj, he was the one that said they were told they that they must flee to Thailand.  That is how we received that news and knew that people were migrating to Thailand. 

00:54:  Once we heard that, we left and went to stay at the town called Nomya.  In Nomya, teacher Lauj Tuam was in charge of a school there.  I had a friend called Lauj Neeb, who was one of teacher Lauj Tuaj’s sons.  I asked my friend to ask his father if we could stay at the school for the night.  There were a lot of us but that night, we spent the night at the school there in Namya.  That night, my father could not sleep at all.  My father said that according to his history with the military with the French, once the communists arrived, they will not spare any one of us.  If we were going to die, would rather die tomorrow than today.  We did not know what to do so he made the decision to go.  My father was the one that made the decision to go to Vientiane.  That was the 15th of May because the General left on the 14th and that was the morning that we arrived at the airport.  We could not secure a place on the plan on the 14th so we went to Namya and spent the night there on the night of the 14th.  We went to Vientiane on the 15th of May.  When we got to Nasu, one thing that happened was that my older brother wanted to go to his office.  My father explained that there is turmoil right now and there is no time for him to go to his office but my brother was the driver so he went anyway.  He was lucky when he reached a store nearby to his office;

00:56: he met his secretary, a Laotian woman.  The Laotian woman told him that the Vietnamese were waiting for him at his office and told him not to go.  That was when my brother got scared.  He was very scared he drove so fast from Nasu to Vientiane.  We went so fast because he was afraid the Vietnamese would see him and stop his car.  He sped so fast we were all scared, we held onto the car so tight.  Once we arrived in Vientiane on the 15th, we did not know what to do so we went to stay at Grandfather Txawj Pov’s (Cher Pao Moua) house.  Then I ran quickly to Txiv Plig’s house to see what was going on over there.  Once my brother and I arrived at Txiv Plig’s place, I saw teacher Mos Liab and Dr Yang Dao’s cars.  It was parked at the catholic church.  I asked Uncle Yaj Tooj, a graduate from Canada who came back to work for Txiv Plig, about teacher Mos Liab and Dr Yang Dao’s cars.

00:58:  I knew it was their cars because in Vientiane, I saw them riding in them so I knew it was their cars.  Uncle Tooj told me that they left their cars there and we sent them to Thailand.  He said he just sent a car full this morning and if we wanted to go to Thailand too for us to come back at 4am the next morning.  We went there at 4am and he took us and a few others to Thailand.  At that time, my father did not allow me to go.  I only sent them but was not allowed to go with them to Thailand and for me to return because we still had one of my sister in law and my grandmother left in Noway.  One of my older brother called Bounmee was in Vientiane and my brother gave him money to get a taxi to go and pick up his mother and my grandmother.  That day, he called a taxi and made them go to the town of Noway to pick up his mother and my grandmother.  I waited until they got to Vientiane and then we all went to Thailand.

01:00:  When we crossed over to Thailand, I met my mother and father there at Nongkai.  I have pictures that I took of that moment as well.  (interviewer)  At that time, Yaj Tooj (Yang Thong) only took the Hmong from Vientiane to Nongkai.  He himself did not go yet.  (interviewer)  I do not remember but at that time, there were very few people there because only the people that truly knew the news and had the transportation were the only ones that were there.  At that time, not many people knew that we had to flee to Thailand so there were not a lot of people there.  (Interviewer)  I did not see Mos Liab and Yang Dao there.  At that time, I saw Yaj Txhim because he was the one that coordinated those that arrived there.  From there, they provided the bus that took us to the airport in Oodon.  Then we got on a Dakota plane from Oodon to Nompong.

01:02:  (Interviewer)  At that moment, we knew we lost and were going to lose our country.  When there was turmoil in Long Cheng, my father knew then that we had lost the war but right now, it was about survival.  No matter who we asked, there was not a single leader that would give us the exact steps of what we needed to do.  No one knew.  After we could not secure a place on the plane, we had to find a way to get to Thailand.  That was all we knew that that was the only way to survive.  (Interviewer)  That is right.  If he did not meet the Laotian woman, he would have been captured when he went back to his office.  (Interviewer)  We were in Long Cheng on the 14th.  My father came on the 15th so we probably got to Nompong on the 16th.  I sent my father to Thailand and came back and then it was the following day that we went and caught up to them.  I had to wait for my grandmother because I was the one that knew the way.  (Interviewer) 

01:04:  (Interviewer)  Once we arrived in Nompong, the General came to meet my father.  The General asked why my father is there too and my father just laughed and said since they were all there, my father had to come too since he was also a soldier and knew they could not stay anymore.  The General said he thought it was only the military leaders that were supposed to be there.  I remember clearly that was what the General said to my father.  The General has been to Bualong multiple times so knew my father well.  His expression was… wow Txoov Nruas… you are here too?!!  (Interviewer)  Yes at that time, there were not many people there yet because when we arrived in Nompong, we were given the homes made of wood to stay in.  (Interviewer)  The friends that went to school with me in Leesay, such as Tub Nruas Kwm, he was the one that coordinated those that arrived.  We were all friends so we helped each other. 

01:06:  Once the buildings filled up, we were the ones that pulled together the tents to make more places to stay and we cooked for the people.  Later on, there were people from the Red Cross that came to support us.  (Interviewer)  We stayed in Nompong until December.  (Interviewer)  The reason we decided to go to France is because back in Long Cheng, the General said they only allowed 2500 people to go to the US.  The leaders were quite upset that there were so many civilians there.  Plus the colonels had multiple wives too so that made the count even higher.

01:08:  Those that worked in UCEF or SKY or were cooks in Long Cheng were taken to America.  There were the leaders left in Vinai so at that time, Colonel Muas Xwm had a Laotian wife and she had friends and connections to the Laotian leaders.  They sent messages that for the Vietnamese and Chinese who had the financial funds to make Lao passports, they were allowed to go to France very easily.  Once we heard that message, we discussed with Colonel Muas Xwm that when General Vang Pao arrived in Thailand, he left Thailand within 24 hours of his arrival.  That meant that if Lao and Thailand had any conflict then we would all get our heads cut off.

01:10:  At that time, we got lucky.  We had liaison.  At that time, the French leaders wanted to know that once the Americans vacate Long Cheng, how the Hmong were going to survive after the war.  There was a French called Alan Bujua that contacted us and Colonel Muas Xwm’s wife knew them so we discussed and said we had to go meet the French because the French had wronged us because we had helped the French previously in the past but they left us hanging.  After that, we helped the Americans and now the Americans left us hanging.  We went to discuss with the French leaders that it was not right that they allowed the Vietnamese and the Chinese to enter their country so easily.  Colonel Muas Xwm and we told Alan Bujua to set an appointment with the French leaders.  At that time, the French leaders were in Bangkok.  At that time, we were in Vinai illegally.  We did not have the proper paperwork.

01:12:  We knew that if you were a woman and were asleep during the time they come to check on us, they would bypass the woman.  The Thai were very respectful of women.  So at that time, Colonel Muas Xwm and I put on a disguise and pretended to be a woman.  We put on the women headpiece, we put on their bras and even put on a Laotian skirt.  We knew that when it was time for the Thai to check on us, we pretended to be asleep.  We did that through every dock all the way until we reached Bangkok.  Once we arrived in Bangkok, Alan Bujua was waiting for us and picked us up.  He took us to a restaurant and they probably already knew because there were some Thai there waiting for us.  He then took us to run out of the restaurant and we took off and found our way to the French leaders and met with the French Ambassador Jerac Andre.

01:14:  Alan Bujua was the one that took us to the Embassy to meet with the French Ambassador.  Colonel Muas Xwm reminded them of how we had helped the French and for them to remember what we have done.  Our family previously helped hide some of the French soldiers in our town.  My father and Grandfather Nom Tsas were the ones that butchered animals and carried food on the horses back to feed the French. We brought all of this up to the Ambassador.  Not only that but we helped the Americans and they have also left us.  Those that were allowed to leave had already left and there were no programs or agenda on where the rest of the Hmong is supposed to go.  We told them that what France and the US did were not fair to us.  The French Ambassador agreed that what we claimed happened was valid and that he will try his best to help us.  At that time, he spoke to us only in French and that is the reason why Colonel Muas Xwm took me with him because I studied in Leesay and was fluent in French.  The reports that we made when we were in Vinai of how the Hmong got involved were reported.  At that time, there was Grandfather Txawj Pov, Colonel Soob Lwj, Pathan Muas Xwm and

01:16: Colonel Ntsuab Pov Xyooj.  They were all related so there was a group of them.  We met and Colonel Muas Xwm asked me to join them and that is how I got involved and knew what was going on when the war broke out.  I knew that some Hmong ran into the jungle to become caub fab.  For those that returned back, we had a report of who came and went.  (Interviewer)  We used the same strategy.  After we met with the French Ambassador, he told Alan Bujua to call the director of refugee called Captain Vanesback and asked the director to help the Hmong.

01:18:  He classified it into three categories.  The first category is that these are the family that has helped the French in the past so it is first priority that they must help us.  The second thing is that these leaders cannot go anywhere and their lives are in danger.  These were all the Colonels with multiple wives and big families and could not go to America because America does not recognize and accept multiple wives.  The third thing is that there are families with sons that went to France to study.  The fourth thing are those that can speak French.  They classified it into three or four categories.  The Ambassador asked Colonel Muas Xwm (Moua Sue) who will be working with the Director on this and that was when Colonel Muas Xwm appointed me the job to work with him as a liaison and coordinator.  Once we got back, I got together with the citizens for them to do the proper paperwork.  I remember there was Cob Moos Neej Thoob (Mayor Neng Thong Thao) who used to be in the military with the French.  There were many leaders at that time.  The very first wave that went to France were the mayors and past military that used to help the French.  Then onto the next wave that included Colonel Tub Pos and Colonel Soob Lwj.  I do not remember if Colonel Youa Vaj was included in that group.

01:20:  A lot of the important leaders came but I did not see Colonel Tub Lwj.  One day I asked Captain Vanesback why Colonel Tub Lwj’s name was not on the roster to go to France.  His father Txoov Tuam used to work with the French so I asked why Colonel Tub Lwj’s name was not included.  Captain Vanesback explained that the letter Colonel Tub Lwj wrote was not addressed to him.  It was addressed to old military leaders that has since retired.  Secondly, back when our French Ambassador wanted to visit Long Cheng, Colonel Tub Lwj was General Vang Pao’s secretary and he responded that the French Ambassador was allowed to visit but that they would not provide any security for him.  That implied that he was no welcomed there.  That made the French upset.

01:22:  They saw that the letter was written by Colonel Tub Lwj so that is why his name was not on the roster to go to France.  I did not know this story until he told me about it.  Colonel Soob Lwj was like an uncle to me so I went to talk to him.  I asked him if he wanted to go to France.  He responded that he really wanted to go because everyone has left already and he asked me to help him so I told him to redo all his paperwork.  I helped him write it in France and addressed the letter directly to Captain Vanesback, the director of refugee.  I just had him sign the back and we sent it in to the Captain.  That was how uncle Soob Lwj’s name got put on the roster the next time around and he went to France.  To this day, many do not know why there were so many leaders that went to France at that time and who was the one that helped break the barrier and the door for them to all go to France.  Everyone did their part too but the very beginning that started it all and opened the door to the Hmong was Colonel Muas Xwm and me.  Like I said, our family, Txawj Pov and Colonel Muas Xwm’s families paved the way finished it before we say anything. 

01:24:  It has been almost 50 years and this is the first time I am telling this story.  (Interviewer)  Tub Ntxawg and Tub Liab has gratitude towards France because when the French came to the mountain of Pousa, that was the time when Phas Nyas were the leaders and helped the French.  They also wanted to go to France because at that time, America no longer accepted anyone anymore so going to France was the only way.  I think they went to France before we did.  I do not know where they were when they left for France.  We did not see them in Vinai.  I think since they are leaders, they already had passports and it was easy for them to just buy a ticket and fly there.  (Interviewer)  We went to France in January 27 of 1977. 

01:26:  We helped all the leaders leave before we left for France.  All the ones that were left were the civilians where their lives were not in jeopardy.  All the important leaders left for France by then.  Once we arrived in France, there was a center that helped refugees.  We received financial help from the government.  We stayed in temporary housings.  We arrived in January so it was very cold.  We went to goodwill to get used clothes and coats to keep us warm.

01:28:  I took the relatives to goodwill many times.  The lady in charge of the goodwill center asked me what I did and wanted to do.  I told her that I wanted to go to school so she asked me to go live with them.  Her name was Madam Beedong.  Her husband was a Colonel and captain of the vessels.  That couple took me in and gave me a room on one of the top floors.  I stayed there and went to school and studied towards their IT and Accounting Program.  I worked there for nine years before coming to America.

01:30:  I finished programming school in France.  I came to America because most of my friends came to America.  France is a small country and at that time, I reached the limit of my monthly income.  In France, it is designed in such a way that whatever your profession is, there is a cap on the monthly income you can receive for that particular profession so I have already reached my limit.  I saw that there is no opportunity in France for advancement so I knew I had to find a way out.  Secondly, I actually did have a lot of friends that went to France too but when we get together and see someone missing, we were notified that they had already left for America.  Since I saw that they were leaving to America, I knew I had to come here too and could not stay in France anymore.  In France, the monthly income is good and I got a car there too but it was sort of like back in Long Cheng.  No matter how good your job is, none of your friends are there and most of your relatives are in America so I knew I had to follow them to America.

01:32:  That is why I decided to come to America.  Not only that but all my good friends where I used to share ideas with such as teacher Muas Liab’s brother Brian Muas, Muas Nplooj and Muas Txhim all went to America too.  They were my role models back in Laos.  Back when we were in Leesay, we were told to focus on our studies so we can go to France but once we got to France, they all came to America.  They were the friends that we would help each other out so since they all came here, we decided to come to America too.  (interviewer)  This picture was in Bualong.  This picture was taken in December of 1973.  I remember this picture.  It is of one of my friends named Vwj Nab.  He is still alive and currently lives in France.  His sister married my Grandfather Txawj Pov.  He is uncle Vwj Nab.  We went to school together in Somtong.  This one, I remember that my brother Nuv Vaj came to Bualong and this was at Camp Caiv Yaj looking down at Camp 19.

01:34:  This is a cave.  Our house and Grandfather Txawj Pov’s house is over here.  This is Camp 19 above over here.  This one was taken on July 10th in 1967.  This is my brother Nuv Vaj that used to go to school in Leesay.  He came and took a picture of us.  This looks to be when we have already went back and lived in Bualong.  I am the one with no shoes, the barefoot one.  This one… the middle one is my brother Nuv Vaj who used to go to school in Leesay and then he went on to become a soldier.  He worked with Commander Muas Choj on logistics in Long Cheng.  The one on this side is my brother in law Vaj Xyooj that is married to my sister Npib.  He was the one that worked with Jeff Fucker.  Later on, Jeff Fucker’s parents sponsored him to go to North Carolina to study.  The one on the right is also one of my brother in law.  He is a Lis.  He currently lives in Marisview.

01:36:  This picture is of Grandfather Npliaj Yaj Muas.  He is Grandfather Txawj Pov’s father.  He passed away in Thailand and was buried there.  The one on the other side is Grandfather Ntsuab Kos Muas.  They married two sisters so are brother in laws to each other.  This one is of Colonel Caiv Yaj.  The one on the other side is my father Ntxoov Nruas Muas.  At that time, my father was a Nai Koos Luab.  My father has started to gain weight here and could not walk anymore.  The one over here is Grandfather Xaiv Xwm, Uncle Soob Tsheej Lis, Grandfather Npliaj Yaj.  The one on this side is Nais Koo Txwj Kawm Muas.  This one is Uncle Txawj Xeeb Lauj.  The one on this side I think is Soob Tsheej Lis.  These are my father’s generation but my father is not as old as them.  This is a very old picture that I have held onto for a very long time.  This is my brother Nuv Vaj.  It was taken in January 1966.  This one was taken in July 26 in 1966 and taken at the Vientiane photo studio.

01:38:  This picture is when the C130 plane landed and people were fighting to get their way onto the plane.  This was when the plane was at the airport.  This picture is one of our Grandmother Xaiv Xwm.  She went to France too but passed away in France.  This was when we were fighting to get into the plane.  I knew them so I took these pictures.  This was early in the morning when the plane has not even arrived yet and we were on the side.  This is Colonel Lis Teeb and Commander Muas Choj’s office of Logistics.  The airport is on this side.  This is the road to the airport.

01:40:  The C130 plane landed.  The plane kept moving slowly so I took a picture of it.  This one you can see the civilians fighting to get onto the plane.  The king’s palace is on the other side.  This is the one where my brother Bounmee just picked up my Grandmother and Aunt and Uncle Muas Teev in Oodon.  We then took the Dakota plane from Oodon to Nompong.  This picture is one of my and my friend Lauj Neeb.

01:42:  He is one of teacher Lauj Tuam’s son.  This is when the General called on all the leaders to go up on stage.  There were many leaders such as Colonel Tub Lwj, Colonel Tub Looj, Colonel Tub Pos, Grandfather Txawj Pov, Colonel Muas Xwm and Puten Tub Yias were all up on that stage.  I consider this the last meeting for the Hmong with the General.  At this time, the General was going to leave so he said that he could not stay and that he was going to leave because the Thai government told me to leave within 24 hours and he could not stay here.  After I leave, I am going to leave the duty as a leader to Colonel Tub Pos.  The second leader would be Colonel Tub Looj.  This is the last picture.  The following morning, the General left Nompong.  I still remember that we were the ones that went to welcome the General in Nompong.  The last person here is Grandfather Txawj Pov.  When the General was ready to leave, he shook Grandfather Txawj Pov’s hand.  When we were in Nompong, they did not allow any pictures to be taken.

01:44:  They confiscated all the cameras but I did not let my camera fall into their hands even if they were going to arrest me because I still have pictures that I took from Long Cheng.  When we arrived there, I did not have a chance to get out and take pictures.  I did not even have money to develop the pictures but I had an uncle, Uncle Bounmee, who helped me develop all these pictures for memories.  (Interviewer)  I used to be a student so I knew that with this turmoil and without a country, I had to take these pictures for memory.  Those were the saddest of times. As a Hmong boy, I cried.  Even grown men cried.  I saw every single man cried.

01:46:  I learned history and the struggles.  Now that we no longer have a country, I see that the past leaders such as Phas Nyas or those that has helped the French or General Vang Pao, they have helped the Hmong generation after generation whether it is the Lauj or the Lis or General Vang Pao’s generation or my father’s generation, they finished their job.  Right now is a time for us Hmong to remember them and their sacrifices.  We did not just appear here.  There were those that paved the way and opened the door for us through their blood and sweat, they paved the way.  During the war, those such as Grandfather Txawj Pov and my father and our family in Bualong fought hard and did all we could to protect our land so we could survive. We did not know we were going to have the opportunity to come and live in such a wonderful country as this.  Everyone must not forget what they have done for us.  Now we have to ask what we can do for the Hmong.  We now live in a country where we can get an education and prosper so we must ask ourselves what we can do for the Hmong.  Not only that but for us to love each other even if we are in a different country such as Laos. We must remember that the Hmong history started thousands of years ago from China.

01:48:  We have been from country to country and are now in America.  Is it worth it to even have bad thoughts?  We have to think that we were sent by God and that is why we are all still alive.  There is still you and me and we have to deliver our message to the Hmong.   We all have to love and support each other.  Whatever is big, make it small.  Whatever is small, make it disappear and we will all fix the Hmong going forward so that the Hmong has a very good history.  They have already created our history and we survived.  What are we going to do to have a country to live in?  What are we doing to do for Lao to love us?  We never knew that we would end up in America.  At that time, that was how it was.  Our parents just gave us the weapons and told us to protect and see how long we last.  We just had to do our job the best we can.  We have to tell our story to our children and grandchildren.  The educated ones have to think and do something for us Hmong and ask ourselves what we can do for the Hmong.  That is what is important.  I am happy that you took the time to come and ask me because anyone can write anything but the truth has to be told.

01:50: We are not cocky people.  We only do what is right.